Welcome back to Season 1, Episode 5 of the Convene Podcast. This week, Greg Leith sat down with Brad Dacus from the Pacific Justice Institute. PJI’s mission is to defend religious freedom…without charge, and they’ve been doing so since 1997. In this episode, they discuss questions like: How do you boldly stand for Christ in the center of the workplace? What is legal and what is off-limits in terms of evangelism? What are the laws regarding how a Christian CEO leads his or her company?
—
Listen to the podcast here
Legally Living Your Faith In Your Company Feat. Brad Dacus
Faith-Driven Leadership: Navigating Business With Christian Values
We’re here with Brad Dacus, the Founder of Pacific Justice Institute. You founded it in 1997, defending religious freedom without cost. I love that. The Dacus Report is heard on radio stations around the country. You’ve been on the O’Reilly Factor, the Today Show, MSNBC, CNN, and Dateline. You have been around the world. You’re in our little studio here. We appreciate it. I’m very excited. Christianity and culture have parted ways. Lifestyles are divergent from what we, who are people of faith, would say we adhere to. We’re here to give leaders of companies words of wisdom. Welcome.
That’s great. I appreciate what you’re doing and what you stand for. It’s a privilege to be here.
Thanks so much. Let’s get right into it. We’re talking to Christian CEOs who are trying to run their company, represent their faith, and stay out of jail, or stay out of the courts at least. How does a CEO even begin to think about doing something substantive without getting in trouble? What can they do? How can they share their faith legally? Is that a good place to start?
Yeah. The best place is when they’re first starting their company. There are a lot of people who say, “I’m going to start a company, and I want it to be a Christian company, but what do I do?” It’s important for them to understand all the things they can do to have a Christian company. For example, their mission statement. It doesn’t have to be a secular mission statement. If their purpose is to glorify God in their business and how they serve their customers, that’s what the mission statement should reflect. They should put that in their mission statement.
They can post their mission statement all over the company, and they can make it clear in their symbols and their business cards. If they wish, they could reflect it in the name of their company. They don’t have to be Secular Financial. They can call it Cornerstone Financial or Jesus Floris, if you will. I’m not a marketing expert, so please take that with a grain of salt. They can reflect their faith in the name of the company, their mission of the company, and their symbols in their company right from the get-go.
That would be helpful to define that in the bylaws as opposed to it not being defined in the bylaws.
They can define that in their bylaws or in their policies. They can spell it all out. They also need to spell out in their policies and provide all their information to their employees on how they don’t discriminate. They do not have to hide their faith at all when it comes to the workplace. That needs to be something they should implement from the get-go when a company is first getting started.
Legal Insights For Christian CEOs: What You Can And Can’t Do
How about if we do a little checklist of, “Can I do this? Can I do that?” Does that sound okay?
Sure.
The average CEO who’s faith-based in America and a Christ follower would say, “Can I pray at the company meeting?”
Yes. They can pray at the company meeting. They can start their meetings with prayer. There was a case out of the Ninth Circuit where an employer did this. He referenced scripture at the beginning of the meeting, and he was sued. An employee quit and sued him because this violated their religious beliefs and convictions. The Ninth Circuit ruled in favor of the business owner because the employee had never let the business owner know that this violated their faith and never gave the business owner an opportunity to reasonably accommodate the religious beliefs and practices of the employee.
If the employee doesn’t let the employer know, then how is the employer going to be able to accommodate them? As long as they’re willing and able to accommodate employees who need to be accommodated. For example, they say, “We’re going to start the beginning of the meeting with prayer and scripture. When we’re done, we’ll let you know, and you can come in.” That’s reasonable accommodation.
I worked for a company for twenty years, Service Master. We had $9 billion in our first objective. Inside the front cover of the New York Stock Exchange, in the stockholder’s report, it said to honor God in all we do. Is that something I could put in a statement?
Absolutely. You can put it on your letterhead if you want. You can make it very clearly known for not only employees, but also the customers and the community.
I can pray before a meal. I can pray before a meeting. I can put a faith-friendly statement or a faith-obvious statement somewhere in my mission, vision, and values.
Also, you can post things on the walls of your business. For example, you can have bible verses posted. You can even have Christian music playing. There was a company in Northern California. They heard our presentation and our training that we provide at the Pacific Justice Institute. Afterwards, he went ahead and started playing Christian music.
You can post things on the walls of your business. Share on XAn employee came in and said, “Is this Christian music?” He says, “Yes. Are you a Christian?” He says, “Yes.” The employee asked a question. He says, “What does it mean to be a Christian?” We take it for granted in many parts of the country that everyone knows what it means to be a Christian. There are many parts, like the San Francisco Bay Area and other parts, where they don’t know. It’s what I call pre-Christian. This employer shared the gospel and responded to the questions to the extent that he was asked, and that employee decided to become a Christian and receive Christ.
That’s great.
They can display it with their music, their pictures, and what’s on the walls. If an employee creates a disturbance about how they can’t do their work because of the Christian music playing, then an employer might want to consider playing the music without the words. That would make a fantastic lawsuit from our perspective because the other side would have to prove that the music itself somehow invaded their spirituality. That would be a very interesting lawsuit that I don’t think the plaintiff would win.
Supporting Employees With Faith: Navigating Challenges
How about if I’m talking to an employee, and they have a difficult situation in their work where they’re not performing, or maybe they’re having a family issue that is causing grief? Is it okay to talk about what we, as believers, might think the Bible has to say to help them?
Yes. Yet, you need to be sensitive to their response. If the employee is someone who you can tell is not comfortable, then you need to back off. You need to always have a few opportunities for them to no longer continue the conversation. You need to make it comfortable for them. What’s even more important is to qualify the employee right up front. It’s easy to do that by saying something like, “The pastor said a little funny joke on Sunday morning about such and such.” If they’re a Christian, they’ll say, “You’re a Christian. Where do you go to church?” They’ll respond. You’ll know that they’re a Christian. I know a friend of mine, Barry McGuire, has this down on how to do this perfectly. He has practiced this.
If an employee creates a disturbance about how they can’t do their work because of the Christian music playing, then an employer might want to consider playing the music without the words. Share on XIf the person is not a believer, then they will not respond. You can tell by their face. You’re like, “This person is probably not a believer.” As things come up, where there’s a crisis or tragedy, you say, “I want you to know that I heard about what you’re going through. I’m praying for you,” or, “If I can encourage you, let me know.” As real problems come up, they’ll know that you care. They’ll know that you’re a Christian. That’s when they come up, and they’ll approach you and say, “I don’t know what to do. You’re a Christian. How do Christians deal with this?” Then, the door is opened up.
To the employee who says, “I don’t know what to do. My kid announced that they are on drugs, and they got kicked out of school,” is it okay for the employer who’s faith-based to say, “Can we pray about that?” Would it be better to say, “Would you be comfortable if we prayed about that?” What would be the right response?
The first response or the thing to do would be to say, “I can tell you as a Christian how I’ve seen this dealt with before. The first thing is to pray for him.” I would say, “I want you to know that I’m going to be praying for your son.” As things open up, I’d be like, “If you ever want me to pray with you, let me know. I’d be happy to.”
I’m letting you know, “I would love to pray for you.” That’s okay.
You could say that. Make it incremental. First, I would say, “I’m going to be praying for your son. If you ever want me to pray with you about it, let me know.” Make sure that it’s something that they want. Make sure that they decide to take the bait. They want to do it. They never feel in a position where it’s being thrust upon them.
If the employee is someone who you can tell is not comfortable, then you need to back off. You need to always have a few opportunities for them to no longer continue the conversation. Share on XAlso, the role of Christian ministers. For example, what I would advise is, “Something that I know could be helpful is the role of church youth groups. I’ve heard of parents who’ve had problems with their kids. They’re rebelling against them. They get involved in a church youth group. I know my church has a great youth group.” That gives them a third party to be an influence on them. That can be very effective. Non-believers want something. They’ll often jump on that. It’s helpful to the kids. It also brings that dialogue of faith in a constructive way into that relationship.
I wish we were like FOX News or something, where you could have that poll that the audience is thinking while we’re talking. We’ve talked to hundreds of CEOs across the country in our 40-plus Convene groups of 500 members. I’m guessing 80% of them would say, “I thought for sure that I couldn’t say, ‘I would pray with you.’ I thought for sure that I couldn’t say, ‘Did you hear that church youth groups are a good potential source for help?’” Most CEOs think they can’t do much of anything. What would you say to those guys or those women out there who are running companies and think, “I can’t say anything or I’ll get in real problems. I’ll have to call Brad.”
We are there for free counsel all the time at the Pacific Justice Institute for people all across the country. The reality is, employers can share their faith with employees. They need to be respectful, though. Whenever you have a supervisor sharing with someone who works under them, you have the risk of intimidation and alleged harassment.
They need to understand that harassment amounts to name-calling, which we don’t have too much of a problem with in Christian businesses. They’re like, “You pagan.” That’s usually our problem, and it should never be a problem. The second harassment kicks in if the employee gives a signal that they’re not interested, and the employer or the supervisor is non-responsive. It continues to badger them in a direct way.
Let’s say I’m that atheist employee. I say to you, my Christian employer, “Brad, I appreciate that you are a Christian. I’m not, and I’m uncomfortable when you share your faith with me. Can we end that?”
The reality is, employers can share their faith with employees. Share on XEmployers say, “I understand. I applaud you for letting me know and sharing that with me. I will respect that. Thank you so much for letting me know that, because we want to be very respectful in this office for all our employees and what they believe. That’s important to us.” You acknowledge it. You give respect to it. You don’t debate it. You don’t qualify what you’re doing or justify right up front.
Here’s what’s exciting. There are so many ways that employers can share their faith with their employees in manners that completely avoid the harassment question. For example, an employer can write out their testimony or their story, and they can email it to all the employees. They could say, number one, “Many of you wonder what makes me tick, what drives me, and what motivates me. I’ve attached my story as far as what drives me. This is not required reading. This is completely optional. If you’d like to read it, feel free to do so.”
Sharing Your Story: Authentic Faith In The Workplace
What a great intro. Let’s go over that again. They could say, “Many of you wonder what makes me tick. There’s no obligation to read what I’m sending out.” There was one more thing. It is, “There’s no obligation to read it. You wonder what makes me tick. This is my story.”
One of the main reasons employers won’t do this is because of the law. They’re afraid that they’re going to get sued somehow. Second to that is the idea of, “I shouldn’t share my testimony because last week, I used some profane language when we didn’t get the deal.” This is reality. We’re not perfect. That’s why we’re here, why we need Jesus, and why we need forgiveness and continued sanctification.
Nonetheless, Satan will try to hit that employer with this thinking, like, “You hypocrite. You don’t send this out.” The message of the testimony is all about how we’re not perfect and how God is still sanctifying us and working with us. That message of humility is a part of the testimony. It’s not that we have arrived and we’ve made it. We understand that. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be sharing our testimony and the grace that God has given us and is continuing to work through us.
There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be sharing our testimony and the grace that God has given us and is continuing to work through us. Share on XThere are over 40,000 employees who are working with Convene CEOs across the country. Imagine if even 10,000 of those employees got a letter like that in their mailbox sometime before Christmas. That would be a great goal.
In addition to that, employers can also have software programs where a Bible verse is sent out to the employees. If the employee doesn’t want to click the Bible verse, it’s up to the employee. It’s just encouragement and inspiration. They don’t have to. The employer can also have free Bibles, or The Case For Faith, or The Purpose Driven Life.
Is it like a lending library or a gift library?
A gift. They could have it stacked up in the lunchroom with a little sign saying, “Limit one per person. These are free.” They can give those out to the employees.
Would there have to be other faith books there, like something from Buddhism or Confucius?
No, because this is the employer’s company. The employer is free to live their faith fully through their company. They don’t have to provide these additional forms. These are books that the employer wants the employees to be able to have. It’s not required reading. They may say, “These are free. These are not required reading.” It is courtesy of the name of the company. Those can be provided and made available to the employees in addition to other materials as well. These are real things that employers can do.
Beyond The Basics: Creative Ways To Foster A Christian Company Culture
What about setting a Christian atmosphere? We’ve talked a little bit about that. Everything we do doesn’t have to be overtly faith in action or evangelistic by saying, “Wouldn’t you love to have a Bible?” I like to say in Convene that if we began to pull back the covers on the meaning and purpose of life by the way the company ethos displays itself, everything doesn’t have to be a play on faith. What are some ideas for that?
There are a number of ways that employers can reach out and provide things. They are constructive and helpful for the employees. For example, they could provide backpacks for the employees. Those backpacks they provide could have a Bible verse on them. They could have a Bible in them if they want. They could be non-religious. Everything doesn’t have to be religious to be Christian.
The average CEO who’s faith-based in America would say, “I would give a backpack, but I wouldn’t put a Bible in it because that’s not legal.” That’s not true, right?
It is legal. Is it profitable? Is it possibly going to be received the right way? Is it a step too far based on the employees and the culture that they have? Possibly. It may be customizing something that’s more for the benefit of the students. That’s something they can do. In addition to that, they could even be bolder than that, for that matter. They could fund the students to go to vacation Bible schools. That is a common problem that employers have during the summertime.
In America, you have both parents working. In at least half the circumstances, it is Mom and Dad. Suddenly, you’ve got kids who are out of school, twiddling their thumbs. Parents are saying, “What are we going to do? How do we deal with this?” Here’s a fantastic, incredible mission opportunity. Vacation Bible schools are provided by a church. They may last for one week, Monday through Friday. Many people say, “Great. There’s one week, and that’s it.”
What an employer should do, and what I recommend, is they get a list of all the vacation Bible school programs provided by the different churches in their community. Oftentimes, they’ll find that it pretty much fills up an entire summer. They can post those vacation Bible schools or send out an email, letting the employees know that the employer will pay and underwrite the cost for each of these vacation Bible schools. They’ll pay the tuition directly to the vacation Bible school.
Without charge, they’ll pick up the cost to help parents who have children who will have extra time this summer. A non-believing mom or dad who is working would love this because it’s like a babysitter. A Christian mom or dad would love it even more. This shows that the employer cares. Also, it could be college scholarships. This is also exciting. It also shows compassion.
What does that look like?
An employer can say, “We’ll provide college scholarships of $500 per semester for every employee’s child who chooses to attend one of these Christian college universities.” It could be one college. They could say Viola, for example, if they wish. They can have several. It’s up to them. It’s their scholarship. They can have whatever rules. They can say, “They must have at least a 2.5 GPA.”
You wouldn’t have to say a Christian university and/or a non-Christian university.
That’s right. They could spell out, “These are the ones we approve. We’ll give scholarships if your child goes to one of these Christian colleges or universities.” It’s fantastic because it has a wonderful benefit. It reduces turnover. You’ve got a child enrolled in college. I’d say it’s Viola. The mother is thinking about leaving and going to another company. The reality is, if she does that, that child is not going to get a scholarship in the next semester. That’s an incentive.
Number two, it shows that the company cares about its employees and their kids. It’s that above and beyond that has a major impact on employee loyalty and turnover. It’s not providing what everyone else provides. That’s expected. That’s an entitlement. It’s going above and beyond. That’s an excellent way of ministering as well.
It's going above and beyond—that's what truly impacts employee loyalty and turnover. Providing only what's expected, what everyone else provides, is merely an entitlement. Share on XFree Resources & Legal Defense: Support For Faith-Based Businesses
You have something to share with the people who are reading, which is a tool that you’d love them to have. Do you want to explain Faith in the Workplace a little bit, and how they can get a copy of the Faith in the Workplace tool?
Certainly. There are many different ways we can evangelize. We talked about some of them. This DVD is called Faith in the Workplace. There’s a whole smorgasbord in part two of all the specific ways employers can evangelize their employees, their customers, and their community, how they can reach out in ways they never would’ve dreamed of or imagined legally, as well as some things they can do to help defend themselves. Without charge, we make this available to all the people who are tuning in. Contact our office.
You’re going to come to the Leadership Summit in Hilton Head, South Carolina, and do some longer talking about all these subjects about what a CEO can and can’t do in the workplace.
As well as how to defend themselves and to help insulate themselves from litigation. It’s so important. We, at Pacific Justice, provide training videos. We do a lot of speaking in churches. We do a lot of preaching in churches. We do seminars. I also want people out there who are reading to understand that we also will come into a company and provide specific training for senior management as well, all without charge. We’ll also defend them without charge. We have a little example of one of those defenses that we engaged in successfully in defending religious freedom.
If there’s somebody who is in a bit of a jam, where they are being sued or there’s a pending lawsuit against them as a leader or as a CEO, they should give Pacific Justice Institute a call. You’ll help them out.
The good news is that there is so much in the way of opportunity that we should not be discouraged. Share on XThat’s what we’re here for. We do that all across the country.
That’s amazing. We’re looking forward to seeing you at the Leadership Summit in Hilton Head. Would you come back and talk to us a little bit more about some other subjects?
Absolutely. The good news is that there is so much in the way of opportunity that we should not be discouraged. We’re touching on a fraction of the opportunities that are there. It is very encouraging and positive for us to look in and dig into what God, by His grace, has given us in this day and hour to live for Him in the workplace.
I’m so happy that you came in. I’m pretty confident that hundreds of CEOs will begin to think that they don’t have to do anything anymore as it relates to their faith. They don’t have to live in fear that they can’t do this and they can’t do that. Let’s covenant to pray together that people would find this freedom to do something instead of sitting back. Thanks again for coming in from the Pacific Justice Institute. We look forward to talking more.
It was my pleasure.
