A spiritually healthy leader isn’t defined by titles, profits, or prestige, but by a life rooted in faith, character, and lasting impact. In part one of this conversation, Dr. Ron Jenson, “America’s Life Coach” and author of 24 books like Achieving Authentic Success, shares lessons from interviewing 350 top leaders and coaching executives around the world. He unpacks why abiding in Christ fuels resilience, how eternal perspective reframes success, and what it means to build a legacy that outlives you. This powerful conversation challenges leaders to rethink success beyond achievement and cultivate the spiritual core that sustains true influence.
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The Spiritually Healthy Leader, Pt. 1 Feat. Dr. Ron Jenson
Unveiling Authentic Success: Dr. Ron Jenson’s Journey
The guest on the show is Dr. Ron Jenson. There are many things I could say about Ron, but the most interesting to me is that he spent 7 months in a 20-foot motor home, crisscrossing the country, and logged over 20,000 miles, talking to 350 leaders. Here’s the question he asked each one. “At the end of your life, how will you know you’ve been successful?” Isn’t that a great question? We’re going to talk about it with Dr. Ron Jenson.
He’s a coach to leaders around the world. He has led a seminary. He chairs a leadership training organization. He has been my friend for over twenty years. His book, Achieving Authentic Success, is endorsed by Zig Ziglar, Elizabeth Dole, Ken Blanchard, and Coach Joe Gibbs. We’ll see you in the studio as we talk to Dr. Ron Jenson.
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We’re here in the Convene Studios in Southern California. I’m very excited to be with Dr. Ron Jenson, who has been a long-time friend. Ron, welcome. We’re glad you’re here.
It’s great to be here. Thank you.
There’s this story that I have to tell. When I was living in Canada and you were recording cassette tape interviews with some of my friends, Kevin Jenkins and David Ray, you would send me these high-ground cassette recordings. I woke up thinking, “This is so exciting. I get to interview Ron, who has sent me so many interviews.”
That’s sweet.
It’s a joy.
Those were fun.
I have to confess, though, that I might have thrown the last one out because my car had no cassette player.
That’s a problem.
The Spiritually Healthy Leader: Beyond The To-Do List
We have been thinking a lot and praying a lot about an emphasis for 2019 in Convene. We’ve come as a leadership team to this place of thinking about a spiritually healthy leader. There’s a lot about the emotionally healthy leader. There’s a lot about your soul if you are an everyday person. There’s not a lot about leaders and their souls. I thought we could talk a little bit about that. Does that sound interesting?
Yeah. That’ll be great. I’ve thought about this before.
There are some paintings that we have in our boardroom that depict business people all dressed in their suits. Jesus dressed in the garb of His day. There’s a weary businessman lying on Jesus’ lap, exhausted with his briefcase, all spewn out. There are other pictures that depict things like overload, complexity, loneliness, what to do with wealth, and how to integrate faith. When you think of a spiritually healthy leader, what do you think of? What would you say to people who think, “Does that mean monastery? Does that mean spiritual direction for days? Does that mean not eating? Does that mean silent retreats?” What is a spiritually healthy leader?
When I think of a spiritually healthy leader, the image I get in my mind is of very competent, impactful individuals living an abundant, rich, full, dynamic, and fruitful life. That is the outflow of being spiritual at the core. In fact, that’s the beginning place for it. In Scripture, in Hebrews, when it talks about the word of God being able to dissect between the soul and the spirit, a lot of times, we become soulish people. The soul is more dealing with the emotions and our perspectives on things, but it can be very non-spiritual. We’re all souls. We also have spirits.
Spiritual health means being in love with God, with motives and power rooted in Jesus at the center of one's life. Share on XGod’s agenda for us is increasingly to become people of spirit. Our spirit, which is that intimate relationship with Jesus that is exciting, dynamic, abundant, fun, and fulfilling, that relationship moment by moment directs our soul, our emotions, and our thoughts so that we’re doing things that are God-centered for His glory and for advancing the kingdom, not just for self. We get all messed up with that. We become soulish people. We don’t become spirit people. Spiritual health is someone who is, first and foremost, in love with God. Their motives and their power base come from Jesus at the center of their lives.
God At The Center: Cultivating Character And Impact
If I’m spiritually healthy, God is at the center of my life. What else?
Part of being spiritually healthy is that I’m cultivating not only a personal intimacy with the Lord, but the fruit of that becomes like character. More and more, I am demonstrating the fruit of the spirit, which is love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control, and so on. I’ll have more of that Christian character flowing out of my life.
The third thing I’ll have flowing out of my life if I’m spiritually healthy is that I’ll be impactful. At work, I’ll be impacting people in the deepest way possible, appropriately. Since I’m loving them, and I have a love relationship with God, which motivates me, and I truly love them and add value to their life, I’ll be impacting people. I’ll be building relationships that are deep and intimate. They’re not just collegial, but close, intimate friendships. I’ll be building into my family. I’ll be building into the workforce. I’ll be building into my culture at large because I love people, and I want to have an impact that will expand the kingdom.
A little bit of others-centered. You’re starting to make it sound like it’s not mysterious. Some people might think, “If I’m spiritually healthy, maybe it’s hard to pin down.” The average CEO would say, “Tell me what I have to be like or do, but don’t make it mysterious.”
That’s true. We get this religious view of being spiritually healthy, and then we start to get into all the things we’re supposed to do versus the real core of it. John 15 is the best example I know of where Jesus said, “My father’s the gardener. I’m the vine. You are the branches.” We’re all branches to the vine. It’s that winery metaphor.
He says, “All that a branch is good for is taking the sap through the vine and bearing fruit. I’ve called you to bear fruit.” That’s what God wants us to do. We want to be fruitful people. That means abundant living. That means impact on our world, impact on the people around us in a positive way, and the fruit of the Spirit. We bear fruit by touching people, impacting them, and also by building His qualities into our lives.
We bear fruit by touching people, impacting them, and also by building His qualities into our lives. Share on XAll we have to do is what is said in John 15:7. Think about this. Jesus goes on to say, “If you abide in Me and my word abides in you, you can ask whatever you will, and it will be done for you.” We’ll be in sync with the Lord. When we pray, we’re praying for something that we know is what God wants.” He says, “You can ask, whatever you will, will be done unto you. You’ll bear much fruit. You’ll prove to be My disciples. God will be glorified. My Father will be glorified. You’ll have great joy.”
Think of those benefits. Talk about return on investment. All we have to do, to simplify it, is abide in Him, which means walking in His spirit, abide in the vine, and let God work through us by saying, “God, I can’t do this by myself. I can’t figure out this financial situation. I can’t deal with this conflict. I can’t get my life quite in order by myself. I need the power of God within me.”
If His word abides in us, that’s the other side of the coin. If the word of God is filling our lives and our minds as we meditate on it and we learn to be instantly obedient to what God says, we create that intimacy. That’s all we have to do. I call it focus on the roots, not the fruit. We get the fruit, but the way we get the fruit is the roots of abiding in Him and letting His word abide in us. Those are the two steps.
I’m reminded when you’re saying that about Andrew Murray’s progression of a spiritual life, which is the first one where the new Christian says, “I can do this.” Years go by, and then they say, “This is something I cannot do.” They finally say, “The Christian life is impossible.” Andrew Murray says, “That’s where God wants you, because the next phase is the power phase where you finally say, ‘I can only do this under the power of the Holy Spirit.’”
That’s true for everybody. It’s harder for those of us who are leaders. There’s an interesting dichotomy. On the one hand, Scripture says, “To whom much is given, much is required.” We have this incredible responsibility to steward what God has given us. If we’re leaders, that means influence over people, money, resources, respect, and reputation. We’re to steward all that. There’s much required from that on the one hand.
On the other hand, the dichotomy is to do that. We have to be good stewards, but we also have to live in brokenness. Scripture talks about that. We’re saying, “It’s not me, but Christ.” We’re saying, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” If it’s true, and I know you, too, believe it is, then that means I have to say, “God, I can’t do it. You have to do it through me.”
I find that a lot of folks get hung up on, “What’s God’s part? What’s my part? I need to practice disciplines. I need to pray. I need to read the Bible. I need to have fellowship,” all of which is true. In Philippians 2, on the one hand, it says, “God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure.” He says, “Work out your sanctification with fear and trembling.”
What I believe is that God does two things. He gives us the insight on what to do, and then He gives us the power to do it. We lean into God to give us wisdom by being in His word and the power as we abide in the vine or walk in the Spirit. Our job is to discipline ourselves for the purpose of godliness, to run the race, and to win.
God does two things. He gives us the insight on what to do, and then He gives us the power to do it. Share on XWe develop all these intentional disciplines in our lives, but they all flow out of what God is doing in our lives. It flows not out of a mechanical thing, but out of this love relationship. I want to be with the Lord because He loves me, He has forgiven me, and He is gracious to me. When I do, He blesses me. When I don’t, I get lost.
CEO’s Dilemma: Eternal ROI Vs. Earthly Achievements
What do you say to the CEO who’s out there that can do everything on his or her to-do list because they can? They meet with the shareholders, get more financing, find a new accounting firm, find a new vice president of marketing, or enter the Chinese market. You say there’s that spiritual discipline of abiding in Christ. Sometimes, it feels like, “Abiding is my spiritual to-do list, but everything else, I can do on my own.” What would you say to that person?
I’d probably say a lot of things, but I’d say two things, for sure. One is, “Good for you. God has given you great talents, skills, capacities, and passion. He has given you those to be used for good, so I’m so delighted you could do these things. Do them well. Do them with excellence. That always ought to be true of us as followers of Jesus.”
The other thing I’d say is, “You might be able to do all those things, but the constant question is, ‘So what?’” That’s the biggest question in my life. I keep saying, “If I do this, so what?” It’s not, “So what?” for the company, the organization, or our bottom line financially, but, “So what?” in light of eternity. Often, I will do things. A person like this can get things done, but the question is, could they have done things in a bigger, more impactful way, and more strategic way if they were in very close union with the Lord?
They’re abiding in Christ. To me, that’s a moment-by-moment experience. We ought to be abiding in Christ. Hopefully, I trust we are. We’re abiding in Christ. If I’m abiding in His words, that means I’m getting to know the word, I’m trusting it, and I’m being transformed by the renewing of my mind continually. If I’m doing that as a way of life with some disciplines built around it, then all of a sudden, I can ask whatever I want. Why? It’s because I’m in sync with the Lord.
Wouldn’t you like to have an advisory board that told you the absolute right thing to do every time? They tell you the right way to do it and the right thing to do. That’s what the Holy Spirit does. We abide in Christ. He says, “You can ask whatever you will, and it will be done for you.” Think about that. It’s not because we are asking for something selfishly. We’re in sync with the Lord, so we have His mind and His heart. When you have that, think of the capacity that builds.
All the folks I’ve coached over the years who are senior executives and business leaders, I tell them, “I’ll help you make more money, I’ll help you with better teams, and I’ll help you live a greater life, but I’m not trying to help you build your business. I’m trying to help you build you. The greatest asset you have in this company is not your people. It’s you.”
The greatest asset you have in this company is not your people. It’s you. Share on XThe problem is, we lose capacity because we don’t have that internal center or that spiritual excitement and vitality to have the power base and the wisdom base to do so much more than we do. We just don’t know. The most talented ones of us are like pikers when it comes to experiencing what we could experience because God is big. He’ll do great things in and through us.
I’d say, “This isn’t a side thing you do by yourself. You do all of it in relationship to the Lord as a way of life. You are trusting him not just to bless your plans, but to guide your plans and empower you. In relationships, you’ve got that supernatural power working through you, so you can love unconditionally, selflessly, and helpfully with people.
Life’s True Measure: What Leaders Say On Their Deathbeds
You spent 7 months running around the country in a 20-foot motor home for 20,000 miles and interviewed hundreds of leaders. At the end of the interview, you would always ask them, “Mr. And Mrs. Leader, at the end of your life, how will you know you’ve succeeded?” What did people say?
It was interesting because these were people who were at the top of their game. I’ve done this both in the non-profit faith-based world, and I’ve done it in the general market business professional world with sports leaders and leaders all around the world. I’ve been doing this for years. As I ask them that, they never say anything about what I call the five Ps, which are Power, Prosperity, Position, Prestige, and Pleasure. That’s what the culture pushes for that success is all about.
I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that. They say things like, “How did my kids turn out? What kind of relationship did I have with my spouse? Did I live a very dynamic life mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually? Believers would say that I have a close, intimate relationship with God. Am I confident God will say, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.’ Am I having an impact?”
The two categories that constantly came back were, was their life complete? Were they successful personally and professionally, and publicly and privately? Secondly, were they living lives that were ones of contribution, giving back both in their companies, their communities, and the culture at large? They were always centered in what kind of center they have in their lives or what kind of spiritual core they have in their lives.
I remember one guy, Bob Safford. He had about 5,000 people in his organization. He is a multimillionaire. I asked him once. I said, “How do you think you’ll have succeeded, looking back at your life on your deathbed?” He said, “I’m just hoping enough people come to my funeral and weep at my funeral.” This guy is a hugely successful guy. He is a great guy and a very committed Christian.
Some years later, he died. He was in his young 60s. He leaned up in bed, turned to his wife, and said, “I’d better sit down again,” and then he collapsed. He died of an instant heart attack. Life is a vapor. We don’t know how quickly that’ll happen. He had set it up so I’d do his funeral. I did his funeral, and here was the Chairman of American Express. It was an invitation-only funeral in Philadelphia of about 3,000 people. It was simulcast around the world to his people. It was crazy.
Life is a vapor. We don’t know how quickly that’ll happen. Share on XHis grandkids spoke. His kids spoke. His colleagues spoke. His friends spoke. I communicated. Everyone said the same thing about the impact this guy had, the vital nature of his life, his love for God, his love for them, and his impact on his family. Many people wept at his funeral. I thought, “That’s a flirty thing. It comes and goes, but it did happen.”
He intentionally lived his life. I met him before he had risen to the top. I developed him quite a bit in our study together. He had lived his life quite intentionally, running after the way he wanted to be remembered at the end of his life. That’s how we ought to live, which will force us back to our spiritual health. You can’t do it without a spiritual core.
Nobody on their deathbed said, “Give me my computer one more time. I want to make sure it’s backed up.”
It could be, “I wish I spent more time in the office.” There are times we need to do that.
It could also be, “I need a bigger boat,” or, “I’m so glad I bought the latest car.”
It’s not that at all.
Maybe we could call these things eternal ROI for those business leaders who are saying what matters. There’s a young gentleman, whom we’ve come to know, who’s doing a one-man play on the Bema Seat. It’s incredible. It’s this powerful rendition of the fact that someday, we are going to stand before God and He’s going to say, “What did you do with what I gave you?” Maybe that’s eternal ROI.
That’s exactly right. That’s probably one of the cores of a vital, healthy spiritual life. It is that eternal perspective. I realized that life is, at best, what the Bible calls a vapor. It’s a shadow. It’s a mist. It uses these very quickly passing words. It comes and goes quickly. What happens is we live like life is going to keep going, and it could go at any moment. That’s why I think it’s so incumbent upon us not to wait even to halftime. Bob Buford was a dear friend of mine. He has done amazing things for the halftime movement. I’ve always been a big believer that we don’t wait for significance until halftime. It’s our whole life.
To our Millennial guys and gals out there, I’d say to start now. Be all in now. Be radically committed to Jesus and fall in love with Him. Be great in your occupation. Be great at what you do. Take care of that spiritual core and build it. Fall in love with Christ because then, you’ll have the power of God, the wisdom of God, and the grace of God in your life, day in and day out. It will take what you could do at this level and take it to that level.
Dr. Bill Bright’s Legacy: Passion For God Over Work
The last person you interviewed after 7 months and 20,000 miles in a 20-foot motor home was Dr. Bill Bright. You had the privilege of working with whom I think history will call 1 of the greatest leaders of time, and certainly, 1 of the top 5 greatest Christian leaders of our day. He had a different answer for you to the question, “At the end of your life, how will you know you have succeeded?” He had a different answer than everybody else. What did he say?
Even before I got to that question, I said, “Can you tell us about the Crusade?” That’s what it was called back in those days, what they were doing. I had known of Dr. Bright as a college kid. I went to Arrowhead Springs and got trained on how to do evangelism. That was a scary and exciting time. I was very impressed with that movement, and I knew it was having an incredible impact around the world. I asked him all about it.
He was a former candy man who God grabbed a hold of, like Apostle Paul, and he was all in. He wouldn’t talk about the Crusade. All he would do is talk about Jesus and his love relationship with Jesus, and weep a little bit. He was so in love with Him. Our conclusion, for the four of us who had interviewed 350 leaders in 7 months in Canada and the US, was that we had visited the very best of the best in their fields all around America, but that interview stood out by far as the best one we saw. These were predominantly Christian believers at the very top of their field.
Our biggest takeaway that was negative from our trip was that it is a lot easier to have a zeal for the work than it is a passion for God. That’s wrong. I get that. I love to do work. I’ll divert myself by doing work, but if my heart is not warm, tender, and sensitive, and if I’m not in this intimate relationship with the Lord, I miss so much.
I can’t tell you how many lousy decisions I made over the years. I’m like you and most of the people who are tuning in. I was a pretty talented guy. I was able to get things done and make things happen, but I go, “What a waste of time. So what?” God was trying to lead me in a different direction, but I wouldn’t listen. I was too stubborn. I was too gifted to be able to listen to God. We want to be careful about that.
Paul’s Leadership Model: The Nursing Mother And Strong Father
We were chatting on the phone about leaders in the notion of spiritually healthy leaders. We talked about how Paul, in the New Testament, referenced that leaders should be like soldiers and win the battle. They should be like a farmer, cultivating and hardworking. They should be like an athlete, running to win. There’s this tricky passage in 1 Thessalonians that you said, “There’s one more thing.” Talk about that.
In all my research on leadership, and I’ve done a ton, particularly on what I call self-leadership, the whole premise there is that good government is based on self-government and that good leadership is based on self-leadership. If I can’t lead myself, I can’t lead others. The core of self-leadership is spiritual leadership. I looked for the best models out there. I was reading everything that was out over the years, including aggressively in the Bible, particularly Proverbs, and identified some qualities.
Good government is based on self-government; good leadership on self-leadership. Share on XIn 1 Thessalonians, it’s a story about Paul, Timothy, and Silas. They were three very different dudes. Paul was a D-type, strong, cleric personality. Timothy was a timid teacher. Silas was a more administrative type. They’re all professional business people. They came into Thessaloniki, spent a few months there, and created what I understand to be the healthiest church in the whole New Testament because they demonstrated faith, hope, and love. Those are the three qualities of maturity. It was the only church he talked to that had all three of them. A lot of times, he wrote to churches that were missing one element, and he would focus on that.
They did it. Paul said the way they did it was that they came in and poured their lives into these people for a few months. Paul starts off 1 Thessalonians 2:7 by saying, “We were gentle among you like a nursing mother tenderly cares for her children.” He goes on and says, “We loved you so much that we imparted to you not only the gospel, but our very own lives.” He starts off this thing talking about leadership. Think about it. He said, “Gentle among you, like a nursing mother tenderly cares for her children.”
When my wife, Mary, was breastfeeding our two kids, I remember many times in the middle of the night when they would cry. I’d roll over and say, “Honey, I’m sorry. I’m not equipped,” and come back. She’d slug me, and then she would bring the child in, so I could experience the joy, too, of her crying. She would breastfeed them. She would play with her little cheek a little bit. They’d bite sometimes, and she’d have to tweak her cheek a little bit. She’d play with their little fingers, look at them, adore them, and hold them. There’s a tenderness to that.
Paul starts off this passage like that. He talks about how that’s 1 of the 10 qualities in there. He ends by saying a few verses later, “Like fathers.” He starts, “Like a nursing mother, and then like fathers. We admonished, urged, and beseeched you to walk worthy of your calling. A good, strong leader based on tenderness.” It is the best model of leadership I know in literature. It works for men and women because about half of the qualities seem more feminine than male traits. Yet, they merge them together.
What fascinates me about it is their major ministry, while they were with them, they were communicating truth, but he said, “Also communicating our very own lives.” It is the Greek word psuché or souls. He said, “We bared our souls to you. We were open and transparent.” The power of that kind of leadership ended up creating a church. It said, “From you, the gospel spread throughout the whole world in three months.”
If you’re entrepreneurial or even at a big corporation, you have three months to come in, get enough bang for the buck, and then get out. They did it by three guys with different personalities and different styles, but they all demonstrated the same character qualities because they were all spiritually centered. They were spiritually healthy.
What do you say to the leader who says, “You can’t be friends with people who work for you,” as it relates to this passage that you’ve described? Tender, nursing mother, and like a father. They say, “You can’t be friends with people who work for you. We can’t get too close.”
I think that’s crazy. The other conclusion we had from this trip that we were talking about before was that the staff had pretty good professional relationships, but they didn’t have good personal relationships, even when they were all Christians. That bugged the heck out of us. We thought, “Wait a second. Jesus said in John 17, ‘I pray you’ll be one perfected in unity, loving one another the way I love the Father and the Father loves Me. We live in complete unity so that the world will know I’ve been sent by Him.’” Our witness is an overflow of our radical love for one another.
I understand the dynamics of business. I’ll be leaving from here, but we’ll be spending a little time meeting with some other mutual friends of ours. We’ll be spending a little time with about 5 other couples who are all part of my faculty in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985 for about 8 years. I fired a few of them, but we maintained close personal relationships because we were friends. There are things that we need to be careful about and that we shouldn’t say to other people. As far as friendships go, I don’t think you have close tightness unless you are friends and demonstrating friendship at a deep level. Being open and transparent is part of that.
Biblically meditate. Don’t empty your mind. Fill it with God’s truth, and be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Share on XIf I were Jesus, in John 17, it’s pretty much a couple of days or a day before I’m done and out of here and on the cross. I’m with my leadership team. Maybe I’d want to go off by myself and not let them see that I’m afraid, nervous, or worried. I’m like, “I’m about to pray this prayer. Let this cup pass from Me. I’d better not let them see me cry.” I love what Jesus says. He says, “Father, you gave me these people. I showed them You. I’m giving them back to You, and I’m out of here.” It seems like, at the end of the game, the thing that mattered most to Jesus was the people, not something else.
He loved them and cared for them. He wanted to be real with them. I did my doctorate in the area of discipleship, studying how Jesus built leaders because no one has ever done a better job of that. His method was that He would tell them what to do, show them how to do it, and then evaluate how they’re doing. I use that same model for coaching to this day. It’s one thing to communicate truth, like, “You ought to pray,” but then He would pray with them and then give them feedback on that. He kept building good habits into them. That includes being open, honest, and transparent, being like a nursing mother, and being like a strong father. He has a great combination of all those.
Simple Steps To Spiritual Health: Reflection, Perspective, Abiding
How about if we summarize for people who are tuning in somewhere in the world, wherever they may be? They’re hard-charging. They’re going 100 miles an hour. They have a 73-item to-do list, and they’re saying, “Spiritually healthy. Tell me what I’m supposed to do.”
Number one, stop for a minute and reflect. Ask yourself the question we’ve talked about and write out the answer. “At the end of my life, how will I know I’ve succeeded?” Write down what you want to be said about you. Another exercise that I do with my coaching clients is I say, “Look at your last week’s calendar. Look at the schedule. Look at how you’re spending your money. Look at how you’re spending your free time. In light of that, determine what is at the center of your life. What’s the God in your life right now? That’ll show you where your values are, which are something.
Sit down and write down how you would like to be remembered at the end of your life, and then say, “To do that, what’s going to be essential?” My experience with coaching clients over the years is that they’ll all come back and say, “I need to have God at the center of my life. I need to have a close, intimate relationship with Him. I want that to be said of me at the end of my life.” Start with that.
Secondly, be sure you build an eternal perspective. Jesus said it so well. “Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” Thirdly, learn to abide in Christ. That’s walking in the Spirit and letting His word abide in you. Be in the Word every day. Think about it throughout the day.
Learn to meditate. That’s a lost art in our culture. Biblically meditate. Don’t empty your mind. Fill it with God’s truth, and be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Remember this. With all of these, Scripture says, “As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.” What you’re constantly trying to do is get your head and your heart wrapped around those values that are near and dear to the heart of God. If you do that, you’ll start to become a spiritually healthy person.
Thanks. Years ago, when I was getting your cassette tapes from High Ground Ministries, I never thought we’d be sitting in my office with me interviewing you. It’s been a joy. It’s been a privilege. For those of you reading, make this year, make this month, and make this week a time when you begin to focus on your spiritual health. Thanks for tuning in.
